Good, Thoughtful Hosts #407: Affordable Housing (2026), Part 2 — How We Get Buy-In

Episodes transcribed by AI and proofed for accuracy and spelling by our team.

Sarah Steimer 00:08
Hello and welcome back to Good, Thoughtful Hosts. I’m Sarah Steimer, and the second part of our two-part affordable housing series focuses on buy in. That’s buy in from potential residents, from those already living in the community, and from the government. Laura and Randy will explain how to gain the support of each segment to make affordable homes more appealing. To those who might reside there, the facilities can’t just exist, they must be desirable. That means green spaces, storage areas, and access to transportation — all elements that can help make them comfortable and engaged with the community. For the area’s existing residents, sometimes they need help understanding how these buildings will fit into their towns. And for the government, they need to better comprehend that these more affordable options make for healthier communities, and they need to take steps to encourage the building of such homes. Our discussion comes on the heels of the U.S. Senate passing the largest housing bill in decades. According to NPR, this bipartisan legislation aims to improve housing affordability and availability through deregulation, expanding old programs, and banning institutional investors from buying single-family homes with few exceptions. The bill’s future in the House is uncertain right now, but it gives us a sense of how efforts are being made at every level, and that there’s an acknowledgement that housing affordability affects the entire nation. So let’s get into the second half of our conversation, in which we talk more about how we get everyone on board with affordable, desirable housing options.

Producer 01:55
Today’s special guests.

Laura Dougherty 01:59
My name is Laura Dougherty. I am the regional director of our Denver office for Cushing Terrell, and I’m an architect.

Randy Rhoads 02:07
I’m Randy Rhoads. I’m director of affordable housing for Cushing Terrell. I’m an architect as well.

Sarah Steimer 02:14
Laura, of course, you wrote about this in a blog post on Cushing Terrell’s website. But could you talk to us a little more about affordable options that are both useful and valuable in the long term.

Laura Dougherty 02:27
There’s a great way to balance planning for those buildings that are more efficient in terms of having a number of units, but also balancing those elements of livability, and a big piece of that is having some green space, having some balconies, having that ability to have common outdoor space, but also having some private outdoor space. And COVID definitely taught us the importance of having our own outdoor space that is private. So being able to balance some of those pieces helps justify the bigger buildings when we can plan for them with, on the site, as long as we’re balancing it with outdoor space, parking — have to put parking, because we need cars, especially in our mountain communities. We’d love to say you don’t, but there’s not public transit in a way that makes it really sustainable, you know, and storage space and all of those things that go into what it means to live and have a livable space within Colorado, within our mountain communities, we kind of come back to bigger buildings, sensitively designed, actually give us better access to providing green space, space for storage, and some of those other components.

Randy Rhoads 03:53
And what Laura and I always try to do is, even though we’re recognizing that we have to have places for cars to park, it doesn’t mean that the car is the primary design element for the neighborhood. So we, we like to make these people-centric, instead of car-centric. So very walkable neighborhoods that are connected to the good things that are adjacent to trails, really taking advantage of the unique and beautiful places where, you know, people want to live. So the the idea that you can balance that need for all the things Laura described, but also humanize it and make it so that it is pedestrian friendly and people first and safe and beautiful and friendly and welcoming. So those are all things that, I think, Sarah, sort of the— when people think about the high rise and high density housing, they don’t think about it as being welcoming and friendly and all those things. So we think that there’s a way to to imbue these communities with more character, with careful, thoughtful planning, and also that really the genesis of this comes from the, what the community wants and what the community says is important. And so that’s another critical part of our process, is public engagement process that asks people what’s important, and we come up with guiding principles that we work with the community leadership, and we get that feedback from the community, and then we design around those guiding principles and keep asking questions: Are we staying on track with that, so that ultimately the neighborhood that’s getting designed is a custom-tailored neighborhood that is about the way people want to live, how they aspire to live, and then we do everything to help make sure that we met, we perform within the budget and the schedule and all those things to deliver something that’s that’s really absolutely about that place.

Sarah Steimer 06:07
Let’s talk more about the community and getting the community on board, because, yes, it’s going to benefit them in the long run that their neighbors and their coworkers, or rather, their coworkers could be their neighbors, and, you know, not have this crazy commute and so forth. You know, you use the word friendly, and I think we all know that many communities aren’t always friendly to a new development, especially if it is a slightly higher density development. Let’s talk about how you get them on board. And when we spoke previously, we talked a little bit about, sometimes you sort of have to show them what their community already looks like, what’s there and what’s available. Randy, I’m going to toss it back to you, because you really brought that up, and I thought that was such an interesting point.

Randy Rhoads 06:59
Yeah, thank you. We, again in Aspen, working on the lumber yard there with the community engagement effort, we actually spent a lot of time taking pictures and and recording what, what that community looks like, so that we could, we could say in these meetings, we’re thinking about these different, we’re offering these different scales and these different approaches. And here’s examples of what those look like in your community. And one of the pieces of feedback when we showed a four story option was that there are no four story buildings in Aspen. Well, we showed that are hard. They just they were handled really well, and people don’t really recognize them as being these huge buildings. And we talked about how, we pointed at the specific elements like the step backs or the colonnades or the different details of the buildings and and got confirmation that, yes, those are all appealing things. So we helped people understand well, actually, you do have some pretty dense and pretty tall buildings in this community, and if we handled them in a similar fashion, what would you think of that? And people were like, okay, you know, we really need to see what that’s going to look like. So we spent a lot of time developing those elevations. But when it came to green space—

Laura Dougherty 08:18
And I think, Randy, sorry if I, if I may, we spent a lot of time really showing those view angles, of doing all of the planning, so that these taller buildings were planned for the middle of the site, so that that view angle around it, you got the cut offs. You could still see the mountains. It wasn’t blocking the things that people thought it was going to block. And so, you know, it was really going through that process of showing them really, what does this mean? And what is that scale? Because it’s abstract. It’s abstract until you see it.

Randy Rhoads 09:02
Yeah, and I was just going to explain that when it came to the green spaces that we were showing on the site plan, in order to help people understand just, how big is that? Like, I see it’s green, and I see there’s space between the building and the street, but what is it? So we actually took aerial photographs of existing parks in Aspen, and laid those down on top of, superimposed on those and said, Oh, there are, people were like, Oh, that’s kind of like that park. Yeah, I know that park really well. It’s beautiful. It’s great. We love it. Our kids go there all the time. So showing folks something that they understand and they can relate to helps also just ease that, that like that everybody’s not everybody’s lined up to understand architectural drawings or understand site plans, understand scale and dimension. So when you provide them with imagery that, that they’re very familiar with, they at least the, understanding they don’t necessarily have to get on board and love it, but at least they understand what they’re looking at. So we found processes like that and strategies like that to be super effective.

Sarah Steimer 10:11
And that, I mean, you bring up the views, and man, I feel like if, if any group of people appreciates a good view, it’s going to be folks living in mountain communities. So like for them to be able to see different views of these, you know, houses and everything, that’s, that’s huge. And along that same line, can you guys talk to me a little bit about how important it was to show different schemes, to kind of get people on board, but also just the importance of variety in affordable housing in general. You know, I, instead of it being this cookie cutter, like, and you get a high rise and you get a high rise and you get a high rise, like, you know, kind of being able to show a really, a nice range of what people want, because at the same time, I keep thinking to myself, like, how would you like to move somewhere and go, Okay, well, this is what’s available, and this is what you can afford is this one thing over here. Talk to me a little bit about the variety, if you would.

Randy Rhoads 11:07
So when we got started in Aspen, city council had a handful of questions, and the number one question, because there was a whole design process that they’d gone through before we got on board, where there was a concept that was, that was landed on, that had a certain number of units and a certain amount of parking, and it was 100% of that parking was below grade in some kind of a parking structure. So their question was, is there another way to deal with parking other than 100% below grade? So Laura and I and the team came up with four different schemes that addressed parking in four different ways. So we had a scheme that had about 70% underground, had about 60% underground, 40% underground. We had one scheme with zero, no underground parking. So in that scheme that had no underground parking, you could imagine, since we’re parking all the cars at grade next to the buildings, there was very little green space. Now there was, that would be the least expensive way to deal with parking, in terms of how to, how to handle the parking, but one of the guiding principles that we established with the community was green space and active green space and something that opened up to views, and all those things that we talked about a little bit earlier. So as we walk through these four different schemes that all dealt with parking, had, they each had different densities for the buildings, too. So some of the buildings were smaller, some of the buildings were denser and bigger. And as it turned out, the scheme with the most open green space ended up with four-story, double loaded corridor buildings. And when we compared all of the guiding principles that we were after, there’s like 30 different items that we were studying, that scheme ended up being in alignment with the most. And it got to the point as we were presenting this to city council, that one of the city council folks said, guys, it’s obvious which one’s the best. It’s the one with the most green, the most alignment. It’s like, Well, true, true. So we, people had a lot of confidence in City Council. And then as we presented that to the community, people felt like, yeah, this, this makes sense. We understand why we have these larger, you know, fewer larger buildings, allows for more active, useful quality, green space. They wouldn’t have understood that if we wouldn’t have gone through the process, and they wouldn’t have seen the options.

Laura Dougherty 13:40
Sarah, you also were asking about variety of units, and the number that you tossed out at the beginning of this, about how many units we are short throughout this country, talks to the fact that this demographic is broad, of where we do not have enough housing. And so that need for a variety of ways to live is important because it’s, you know, our singles, it’s kind of the newly married. It’s those with families. It’s those who are aging and would like to age in place, and it’s those that are able to then, kind of downscale, downsize again, at the kind of tail end there. So we need that variety, and it can take a lot of different forms. And you know, Randy, I think you mentioned earlier, we have a lot of product types that we have designed and been able to implement and put in some of our communities from those townhouses, the apartments we’ve talked about quite a bit, but one of the things that we’re exploring now is really that build to rent space. So these are the cottage homes that really create that neighborhood, and it allows for that one-bedroom cottage, up to four bedrooms, which gives us that diversity within a neighborhood that we can imagine, that we’ve got grandparents and we’ve got kids and we’ve got a whole variety of people able to make a whole community and a neighborhood, and those are the things that we’re looking to explore, because obviously, this is the West. We all moved to the West because of that kind of promise of open spaces, and we’re now getting far more challenged, that notion. And so finding those right spaces to do that, but having that variety, where we have higher density, where our land is scarce, and then we’ve got greater diversity and variety and space.

Sarah Steimer 15:57
I mean, this is this is bringing together everything that we’ve had in this conversation so far about, how do you get the rest of the community on board, the existing community on board. But then also, how do you make it so that the people who do need these affordable housing types, how can they themselves be the best neighbors they can possibly be, and that is providing what they need as well. You know, you shouldn’t have to be in some crazy income bracket, to be able to have, you know, a place to store your skis. This is, this should be something that everyone is capable of doing. And you know, if that is an opportunity for everyone to live well, it just, it emboldens the entire community.

Laura Dougherty 16:37
Being a good neighbor means that you’ve got the ability to do so. So providing ample parking for these developments is critical, where you kind of survey the community and you find out everyone does have a car. It’s not necessarily for the reasons we think, because in the specific case of Aspen, there’s an incredible bike trail that just connects three miles to, you know, we’ll call it downtown. There’s just a number of great ways to move there, but people do still need cars because the Walmart isn’t downtown, connected to the bus line. It’s way, way down valley, where you have to go basically trek 45 minutes just to go get, you know, your staples. So people do still need vehicles, and when we can provide that within that neighborhood, those cars are leaking out and putting parking pressures on adjacent neighborhoods. So it really is acknowledging, what really do these residents need to be good neighbors? And it is, how about we provide storage so that we’re not seeing bikes sort of stacked up all over the place. Maybe we provide a really great bike room so that folks can have, you know, four-season storage and not have to worry about that.

Randy Rhoads 18:10
Yeah, on top of the pedestrian-friendly design thoughts at Aspen, we also had a bus stop right in the middle of the neighborhood where there’s going to be a free bus every 30 minutes to get folks to downtown. So it doesn’t mean that you don’t need a car, but it means that there’s options. So it’s like, Laura’s talking about the bike path. It’s awesome, but there’s also this bus. And you know the, the idea that you live in a place that has options, that just creates more opportunity for folks to exercise, to meet neighbors, you know, to be part of something, as opposed to being trapped in their car, right? So I think you know, these are subtle little things, but they don’t happen without great political will and desire to create a healthy, vibrant, dynamic community that is focused on quality of life, as opposed to just getting as many units as possible out of sight. It’s about, what do we need to do to make this a great place to live, to make it a great neighbor, and to make it an asset to this community? So people look at this as they drive by, and they see it as something they’re proud of, and they know that their neighbors and people in their family, people that they care about live there and love it, and it’s it’s positive. So I think that you have to do all the things that Laura and I have been talking about related to the quality of the design and the execution and the construction and then the property management. All those things together are critical to make this long-term be something that’s wonderful and a great place for folks to live.

Sarah Steimer 20:19
I keep thinking back to, you know, the once upon a time when people tried to do high-density affordable housing, and look at what disrepair and what, you know, unhealthy — think about tenement housing back in the day. Think about like the crazy high rises, and you’re not getting fresh air, you’re not allowing people to live their best lives. So yes, we are in this crisis right now, and we can solve it fast, or we can solve it intelligently. And, you know, it really seems like this is a really important point to make, that these could be things that don’t just solve a problem, but are actually homes that are actually a place where someone wants to hang their hat and go, Oh, that was my first blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, I love the years that we spent there. Or maybe they spent, who knows how many years — like that, that is truly their, their really, really important home to them.

Randy Rhoads 21:13
Well, I would just add that, in addition to affordable housing being infrastructure, as being like this threshold aspect of the way Laura and I think community should, should think about affordable housing, that it’s just absolute necessity so that you can have the quality of community that that folks dream of. There’s important health — mental and physical health benefits to affordable housing and important economic health components. So when people have a stable home, their stress, their ability to care for each other, their ability to get medicine and eat healthy food, all those things increase, the the rate of things like asthma go down, because it’s a healthy living environment. There’s lots of sunlight, there’s a high-efficiency HVAC, and in some locations, air conditioning, so that the quality and the materials that are utilized and in the buildings that we do are absolutely bringing people a healthier way of living every day, day in, day out. And then on the economic side, for every affordable housing development that gets built, yes, there’s all the construction jobs that are happening, all the suppliers. Long term, you’ve got people that run those developments that are part of the property management, part of the maintenance, and then there’s folks that are coming in to help with the, with the site and the grounds maintenance and all those things. So there’s long-term economic benefit that goes on long beyond the construction. And ultimately, you’ve got a place where people are connected, connected back to their community. And I think that there’s obvious mental, physical, and economic benefits to that, too.

Laura Dougherty 23:10
The one piece to drive home is, Randy and I keep saying that it’s, it is infrastructure. What that means to us is we need bridges, we need libraries, we need our fire departments, we need roads. Housing is as critical to the success of our communities as all of those things that are base infrastructure pieces that we don’t question. And affordable housing needs to be in that category, and we have to spend the dollars on it so that we are as proud of it as we are of those other bits of infrastructure.

Randy Rhoads 23:52
Yeah, just like there’s budget line items for all those things there needs to be, we think there needs to be a budget line item for what that, that community is doing about affordable housing. It could be that they’ve got a piece of property that the community, that the city, the town owns, they’re going to put that, make that available, because in affordable housing, it’s all about the gap between the resources that are available and what it’s going to cost to actually execute it. Because the cost of executing and building affordable housing is the same as market-rate rental housing. It’s just that you’re not going to be able to get as high a rent on the backside of it, so you have to have subsidy. So if you can get the land to come in at no cost, that starts to decrease that gap between what’s available and what’s needed. And so then things like, okay, so if there’s buildings on that site, and the city or town can take care of that demolition and pay for that and get those buildings down and hand the developer a clean, environmentally clean, and geo-technically buildable site that takes those costs off of the developer side — and those are the, those are standard. Those are very normal things that I’ve seen over the last 35 years all across the country. So this isn’t a peculiar or once-in-a-blue moon kind of thing. These, these kind of steps to incentivize and create the possibility and the opportunity, again, it really goes back to there needs to be an incredible political will and care, and they need to make, that needs to be a priority. So it needs to be part of the budget. It needs to be part of of, city has to understand, town has to understand that they’ve got a stake in creating a healthy, vibrant community, and part of that is helping create and incentivize more affordable, attainable housing that works for everybody.

Sarah Steimer 25:54
Buy in across the board. That, I, that’s — I love talking about this stuff. It’s, you know, I, I think it’s really heartening to hear this too, because it’s not just that, you know, you’re figuring out how to talk to the community, you’re figuring out what’s going to make the most sense and how people are going to want to live there and everything. But a lot of this has already been figured out. It’s putting the pieces together. It’s, it’s just getting that buy in and making sure that it can be possible. That first initial like, knock that first domino down situation. Well, I really appreciate the time that you both gave us today. This is, again, I feel like we could make this like a 12-parter, to be honest with you. It’s such an interesting conversation and an important one. You know, we had that number earlier about what, you know, 4.7 million housing unit shortage is no small feat for us to try to overcome right now. So knowing that these are the solutions to it, I think is so important to be discussing. Well again, thank you guys so much, and hopefully you’ll both be back real soon.

Randy Rhoads 26:57
Thanks, Sarah.

Laura Dougherty 26:58
Thank you.

Producer 26:59
Music for Good, Thoughtful Hosts was written, produced and performed by Sam Clapp. Our moderator is Sarah Steimer, editing by Travis Estvold And a special thank you to our content development team, Marni Moore and Trisha Miller. For more information about the podcast, visit thoughtfulhosts.com. Thanks for listening.