Good, Thoughtful Hosts #402: The Movement to Replace PVC

Episodes transcribed by AI and proofed for accuracy and spelling by our team.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
PVC, vinyl chloride, carcinogen, cancer alley, endocrine disruptors, dioxins, sustainable alternatives, Changemaker experience, material innovation, circularity, regenerative approach, greenwashing, cost redefinition, human health, ecosystem health.

Sarah Steimer 00:07
Hi everyone, and welcome to Good, Thoughtful Hosts. I’m Sarah Steimer, and today we are going to talk about PVC. PVC is a highly desirable building material. It’s durable, it’s easy to mold. It colors well, plays well with other materials, is inexpensive, and tends to be more fire retardant than almost any other plastic. And the chemical used to make PVC, vinyl chloride, is one of the most produced petrochemicals in the world. But that doesn’t mean it’s good for you, or good for the environment. Now bear with me as I run down the list of all the reasons PVC is bad, and I do apologize for how much of a bummer the next few moments will be. So to begin with, the International Agency for Research on Cancer considers vinyl chloride to be a Group 1 carcinogen, known to cause liver cancer in highly exposed industrial workers. It’s also been associated with brain and lung cancers, lymphoma, and leukemia. Here in the U.S., many vinyl chloride and PVC production facilities are clustered with other petrochemical facilities along an 85-mile stretch of the Mississippi River in Louisiana, known as, unfortunately, Cancer Alley. People in one town in the area have about 50 times the risk of developing cancer as the average American. Add to that, they also face the constant threat of chemical accidents. While it didn’t occur in this same region, you may remember what happened in East Palestine, Ohio, in 2023 when train cars carrying vinyl chloride and other chemicals derailed. The situation was so toxic that Ohio’s governor ordered residents of the community and a neighboring part of Pennsylvania to leave while they attempted to clean up. In addition to the manufacturing and transportation risks of vinyl chloride, there’s also what they give off once in our environments: PVC plastics can release endocrine-disrupting phthalates — used to soften PVC — and cancer-causing dioxins into the air and water during much of their life cycle. And although the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has classified vinyl chloride as a known human carcinogen, we are still several years away from any potential regulations. So without the help from the government, it’s really up to others to phase out its use. Now, the good news is that some of the biggest Fortune 500 corporations in the world have enacted big policies to phase out PVC in products and packaging in favor of safer, more cost-effective alternatives. So some of those companies include Nike, General Motors, IKEA, Johnson & Johnson, Abbott Laboratories, Target, Toys, R Us, and Lego. But considering that 61% of all PVC produced in the world is used in building and construction, our own industry is really the perfect candidate for leading a change. So in our conversation today, we’re going to dive into some of the efforts within the industry, along with alternative options for building and how we can lead the shift away from PVC.

Producer 03:53
Today’s special guests.

Jill Lee 03:57
My name is Jill Lee. I’m a senior interior designer and associate at Cushing Terrell.

Gordon Boggis 04:01
Hello. I’m Gordon Boggis. I’m the CEO of Carnegie.

Sarah Steimer 04:08
Awesome. Well, again, thank you both so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Jill, you just returned recently from a material innovation event, and Gordon, this had a lot to do with you, so I was hoping you guys could tell me a little bit about this Changemaker experience. You know, the origins of it. First, I’ll start with that, with you, Gordon. Tell us a little bit about how this event, this effort, came to be.

Gordon Boggis 04:32
Yeah, so Carnegie was founded 75 years ago by a guy called Bob Goldman. And Bob founded the company on a promise to be forever, 100% PVC free, and to develop less hazardous, more sustainable alternatives. So in many ways, Bob was one of the original changemakers for our industry, and what Carnegie very much wanted to do was bring together a collection of talented, enthusiastic, sustainably focused designers within the built environment to continue to help to work with them, inspire them, partner with them, and, quite frankly, provide more access to better information. Because I do believe better access to information leads to better decisions. I get that we’re in a very aesthetically driven industry, but it’s not just climate impact, it’s it’s also impacts to to human health, ecosystem health, community health, and circularity. They all need to to come into this discussion as, I think, really well framed out by the Common Materials Framework. So what Carnegie wanted to do was to take groups of changemakers, sustainably-focused designers, to help to continue with just sharing more information, exposing them to other opportunities, more sustainable alternatives, and hopefully, at the end of that, inspire them to continue to build a better future and build better in their work and and in their kind of purview.

Sarah Steimer 06:22
Well, Jill, then tell us a little bit about what prompted you to apply in the first place, because this has been something that I know that you have quite a bit of background in, considering materials, and you can talk to us a little bit about the materials library that you guys have. But why do this in the first place? And also, why do it in sort of this group fashion too. Because, of course, you can self educate and maybe take some courses, things like that. But why apply? Why did this appeal to you in this format?

Jill Lee 06:51
Yeah, I was really interested in applying for the Changemaker experience, because I am really passionate about sustainability. And you know, Sarah, as we’ve discussed before, I’m a lifelong learner, I really identify with constantly learning and and, you know, improving my knowledge in areas that I’m passionate about. And I, you know, I do want to be at the forefront of how I can create a more responsible and sustainable world through my design work, you know, expanding and extending our knowledge. I think it’s just really important in this industry, there’s, we’re never going to know it all. And information is always going to be changing. New and relevant information is always going to be coming together and innovative, you know, materials and innovative strategies within how we can design and build, you know, our spaces are always going to be happening. So we have to stay, you know, abreast of that, and learn that and and then use it in our practice. And I do think that when we are designing and working in our, you know, our local communities, we’re we’re sort of in a bubble. We’re experiencing what we’re doing on a daily basis with the people we’re doing it with. When we have opportunities like this to come together with other designers and architects and sustainability experts, not only from around our nation, but around the world. You know, being able to travel to Europe and meet with these innovators, it’s just, you know, was just an amazing experience.

Sarah Steimer 08:13
So let’s, let’s talk about the trip itself, then Gordon, when it came to organizing this and thinking about who this group would be speaking with, what they were going to see, what the goals were for everyone on this trip, too, you know, talk us through that a little bit, if you would.

Gordon Boggis 08:30
Yeah, I think again, the goals were to inform and inspire, if, if I had to summarize them. So what we put together was a an itinerary where we spend three— three different countries. We wanted to to kind of mix it up a little bit and include some manufacturing processes and manufacturing partners to show that high-performance products for the built environment can be delivered sustainably. And kind of show people behind the curtain, so to speak, the practices there that continue to deliver high-performance, sustainable products. We wanted to talk to some of the thought leaders within Europe. So we had a great session with one of the, I would say, one of the leading design shops in Europe. They’re actually based in Holland, very forward thinking in terms of their approach to sustainability and taking care of our planet generally. And then we weren’t just looking at kind of like established manufacturers. There were some startup companies that we started to talk to as well, and it was just inspiring to see them, maybe at the earlier stages of their journey, but they’re doing great work and innovating within, within our industry, to show again that there are new ways of doing things. There are new materials we can recycle, we can, and repurpose— we can get to a more regenerative approach to the built environment.

Sarah Steimer 10:05
So Jill, let’s talk about some of the takeaways that you had from this trip, in particular, as it relates to PVC. What you learned about it. Of course, you already went in with existing knowledge, but tell me about some of what you were able to bring back to the States with you about what you learned.

Jill Lee 10:21
The Good Plastic Company is one of the companies that we met with in Amsterdam, and I think that they — aside from Carnegie and talking about their Xorel product — the Good Plastic Company is a manufacturer that only started in what 2018, so, seven years ago or so, and they’re, what they’re doing is they’re taking plastic waste from a landfill and turning it into interior panels that can be used to make furniture, lighting, casework, countertops, I believe they even have some exterior uses. So they’re taking actual plastic PVC garbage out of the landfills and then turning it into a product that that we can use and specify. It’s beautiful, it’s durable, it’s functional, is 100% recycled material, and then can be recycled at the end of its life cycle. So that circularity that Gordon mentioned is living within the way in which the Good Plastic Company is creating products, their products and what they’re doing is something that I’ve been talking a lot about with our team. We’ve ordered, you know, their sample boxes for all of our libraries across the country, so that we’re able to start supporting them and using those products in our projects. I think, from a conversational point of view, through the discussions that we had during the trip, what we’re learning is that there are, of course, PVC-free products out there in the market. The demand is not there yet in the way that all manufacturers are feeling compelled to make PVC-free products, but it’s definitely getting there. There are, you know, manufacturers who are working on, you know, innovations and technology with their products to be able to provide PVC-free products. And you know, aside from from Carnegie and their textiles, one part of the industry of the built environment is flooring. So there’s, you know, major manufacturers that are starting to come out with PVC-free flooring materials. They might just have a few within their larger line of LVT. So again, the the market hasn’t driven total change yet, but it’s absolutely getting there. And, you know, that was a definite takeaway from from the trip.

Sarah Steimer 12:24
Jill, I wanted to also, you know, we’re talking about a lot of the solutions right now, which is great, but let’s, let’s kind of pause for a moment here and acknowledge some of the challenges that a designer might face when it comes to talking to a client, talking to someone about why they should switch to this. You know, give me an idea, especially maybe based on some of the conversations you had during this trip about some of the existing challenges.

Jill Lee 12:49
Yeah. So one of the largest challenges that that we face, I know, in our firm, and it’s part of what we discussed as a group while in Amsterdam, is just the idea that for some the word sustainability can be challenging. So when we’re talking about PVC-free products, we are talking about sustainability. And for some of our teammates and some of our clients and even some of our manufacturing representatives, like our sales reps that call on us to show product, there are these groups of people that might be triggered by the word sustainability. So coming up with a different words to use, alternatively, things like circular, regenerative, healthy, non toxic, future-focused, future-proof — these are all words that we can use in place of sustainability. Another, you know, and probably the biggest issue is cost. There’s a perception that PVC-free is, you know, a lot more expensive. It is typically more expensive. So when you have clients and and projects that have a decent budget, it’s a lot easier to substitute PVC-free products, you know, then, then LBT. I would argue that another option to substituting, you know, if you’re if you’re not able to substitute a higher-dollar PVC-free product, then just change the form to something else. Maybe it could be carpet, maybe it could be concrete, maybe it could be wood, it could be linoleum or rubber, some of our natural flooring material options. So I think there, there are ways to get creative to ensure the least amount of PVC possible on a project, but just comparing apples to apples with vinyl flooring versus non-vinyl flooring, there is a cost difference there.

Gordon Boggis 14:28
Yes, more sustainable PVC-free alternatives can be more expensive, but I would just challenge our industry to redefine costs, because cost, cost is not just about what it cost me per installed square foot. It’s about what was the impact to human health, what was the impact to ecosystem health? What was the impact of fence line communities where that particular product was produced? Is, is there a circularity solution and and obviously, what was the climate impact as well? We need more transparency. That’s a great thing within our industry.

Sarah Steimer 15:27
You know, you touched at first there too on something I want to go back to a little bit. So you mentioned that the word sustainable can be triggering. Let’s talk about some of those other magic words that can really confuse a lot of people. And I’m talking about when we do some green washing, when there are products that have been— they’re just using those magic words. I’m just gonna, I’ll put it that way. Uh, Gordon, can you talk a little bit with us about that?

Gordon Boggis 15:53
Yeah, sure. Look, I think, I think it was TerraChoice now, part of UL, that I think did a great job of defining the seven sins of of greenwashing. And we do, unfortunately, live in a pretty green washed industry. And again, we’ve been talking a lot about PVC, so you know, just a couple of examples. One of the sins is the sin of hidden trade offs. And that’s kind of pointing to a claim that suggests a product is is green, based on a very narrow set of criteria, rather than looking for other more important, you know, kind of elements. So, you know, there have been some newer variants of PVC and focusing on just one element of maybe adding an enzyme does not change the fundamental chemistry or production process or the hazards to human health, ecosystem health, community health associated with that. So that would be an example. And I think we also, certainly, in our built environment, come up against the sin of the lesser of two evils, which is a claim that may be true within that product category, but it can actually be distracting. There are companies that may focus on just one part of their product range, and it could be, you know, less than 5% of their revenue when the 95% is still, unfortunately, products which can be, you know, environmentally damaging. So occasionally you will see bottle fuel companies talk about green initiatives. And I think the question there is, what percentage of their revenue comes from that? How committed to that are they? And I think it’s a similar analysis for PVC. PVC is still the majority kind of product which many, many wall covering, carpeting, flooring companies bring to market. And I think the question there is, if you’re only highlighting one, one halo product, but 95% of your businesses is still has hazards, environmental hazards associated with it, then I think that’s that’s an example of, again, one of those lesser of two evil sins, I think with better information, better classification, we can we can start to filter better, we can make better decisions.

Sarah Steimer 18:28
So let’s talk about the positives a little bit more. Jill, starting with you, I’d love to hear about some wins that maybe your team has had when it comes to getting folks to switch, or just taking the initiative yourself and going, I know that this is going to be better, because I know that’s that’s a big part of this conversation is as the designer, as the lead on some of these projects, you need to be the ones to be able to say this is the direction that we need to be going in.

Jill Lee 18:54
So our Seattle office, their design library is 100% PVC free. They’ve been able to set that goal for themselves, and, you know, essentially not allow any of our product reps to bring in, you know, any products that have PVC. So that’s a huge win. We do have other design libraries around the country in our firm, and we haven’t been able to get completely PVC free, but we are working toward that, and we are, you know, talking about it, and, you know, doing everything that we can to make sure that that is in our future, and, more importantly, in our in our specification. So, you know, just because we have PVC products in our libraries does not mean that we need to specify them or feel obligated to use those products. Like I said before, there are so many other options that we can consider for flooring, again, is a great example of being able to have options and choices, to be able to avoid, you know, that PVC in flooring,. Having those resources and knowing, I guess, knowledge is power, right? Knowing as much as we can about each manufacturer’s sustainability ethos, their mission, what’s in their products, not just one line or one collection, but in all of them, is really going to help us be able to make the best choices. I think, Sarah, your point about the power that we might have as design leads and being able to have that kind of control over what goes in our project is such a great point, because we as designers and specifiers really do have an immense amount of buying power as compared to the average consumer. So we are able to make, you know, a bigger dent in the overall issue of, I guess, non sustainable design choices, just by the way that we consider and look at products and how we specify them.

Sarah Steimer 20:41
I would imagine, as long as the request is there, as long as there are more requests happening, that’s that’s only going to be a better and better opportunity. Gordon, what have you seen that makes you optimistic? Of course, I’m sure these trips make you hugely optimistic. But anything else?

Gordon Boggis 20:57
Yeah, look, I think it’s interesting. My previous lives have been in better food and beverage companies and some healthy, active lifestyle companies. And, and in food and beverage I think there’s a key virtuous circle which is going on, which is consumers have become more aware of the benefits of better nutrition. They have therefore sought out better information. Through that better information, they make better nutritional choices, and that pushes manufacturers to make better food and beverage choices, and it and it is a really nice virtuous circle that starts to happen. I think what inspires me is, as I go out and talk to specifiers, generally, there is a strong commitment to build a better future with more sustainable alternatives. There’s, there’s no doubt in my mind, and I think in the last few years, there’s, there’s been a real upswing in a positive way, in terms of a desire to become better educated, better informed, to allow better decisions to be made. I think the one thing that we’re missing, and I’d love to create a similar virtuous circle for our industry, but we’re not quite there at the moment, is the average consumer does not walk into a built environment, space, a workspace, a hotel, a healthcare facility, and go, Gosh, I wonder what they made this with. What impacts did it have on human health and ecosystem health before it even got to this position? I think that education is starting to happen. So I think we’re edging towards a virtuous circle.

Sarah Steimer 22:40
I, you know, I would ask you, then, if it does feel like we’re at a bit of an inflection point right now, I’m going to ask you both for almost your elevator pitch. You know, we’re having this conversation because it feels like we’re at the forefront of this movement right now, correct? And you know, if someone is really at that tipping point, if they’re maybe hedging a tiny bit, what is the way to push them over the edge, to really rethink their material choices. And Jill, I’ll start with you.

Jill Lee 23:07
Well, you know, listening to Gordon speak, I think that I found him to be so inspiring on the trip, and hearing him share his ideas, and you know, what he’s inspired by in terms of this area of sustainability, has gotten me very excited and kind of reinvigorated and rejuvenated in this in this area, for somebody who is, you know, on the edge, or is is, you know, just at that tipping point of wanting to make change, my advice would be to find those who inspire them, and to seek out the knowledge you know needed to better understand the issues as a whole, again, to Gordon’s point, that the cost isn’t just the square foot cost of installing this material, but it’s the entire cost of of the product from a health climate point of view.

Sarah Steimer 23:52
All right, so Gordon, Jill’s solution is to get you out more. We need to get you on television. We need more podcasts. No, no, that’s, that’s, that’s, I mean, that’s, that’s a huge part of any sea changes, and it is inspiring enough other people to get on board. Gordon, go ahead. What’s your, what’s your elevator pitch for someone on the fence, maybe?

Gordon Boggis 24:13
Yeah, look, I think, I think my elevator pitch starts by acknowledging where we are. The built environment has a very damaging environmental footprint as we think of it today. I’m not trying to be harsh and not trying to be negative, but I think it’s very important. Again, Metropolis quoted about 39% of carbon impact is due to the built environment, there are also significant other impacts, again, human health, ecosystem health, community health, circularity. So we have to acknowledge the impact our industry has, as currently operated. What I would then move very quickly to is saying, the design community, the specify community, has a huge opportunity to change that, and they have huge power to change it. Just as Jill said, when I’m trying to make a better choice on a on a beverage, I’m picking one product from a shelf, or maybe, you know, just selecting one snack versus another one. Amplify that, some studies say up to 240 times, because of the scale of the projects that the design community are involved with, you have tremendous power. And I think that that comes with, you know, that leads to this, this great opportunity. So my, my finishing pitch is, always, there are more sustainable alternatives out there. Let’s, let’s redefine cost to not just be dollars and cents, but also think about environmental impact generally. And my plea is always, I get that we live in a very aesthetically driven industry, that no one wants to create a new interior that doesn’t look, that doesn’t meet the brief. You know, whatever the brief is, it’s going to look fantastic. And I get that we live in that esthetically driven world, my kind of request is just pause for two minutes before finalizing that aesthetic look, because the decisions that a specifier can make can have environmental impacts for decades, if not generations. By making the right choices, you can build a better future with materials that matter. And I think that’s the inspiring thing.

Sarah Steimer 26:54
Yeah, this idea that the solutions are out there, you just have to choose them truly, yeah.

Gordon Boggis 27:00
And again, I think it’s, it’s choosing on a reprioritized set of set of criteria.

Jill Lee 27:07
I think that that’s a great point Gordon, because one of the things that I think about often, and you know, talk to our, talk to my team about often, is that there’s no way that we as designers and specifiers can know it all. So yes, we have, we are educated in a very specific area in our education, but what we can’t know is the chemistry of all the products, and we can’t know the environmental impact of all the products that we specify out there, but there are resources for them. We have our manufacturer reps, we have our sustainability experts, we have our certification experts that we can go to to ask these questions and get the information we need to make that better choice. It is possible for us to make the right choice, but we do have to ask for that information.

Sarah Steimer 27:53
That’s like music to a journalist’s ears. Check your sources. Check your sources. Well again. Thank you both so much for this conversation. It’s always, I always say this, it’s, it’s always a pleasure to hear about these things as an outsider, as someone who is not actively in the industry, to learn about the choices that really total strangers might be making on your behalf. And you would like to think that those total strangers are thinking about you, your future, your neighbors, things like that. So it’s really heartening to hear that there are folks out there who are thinking about that, who are challenging themselves to look things up and learn and educate themselves and also take the opportunity to be inspired by others. That said, again, thank you both for your time today. I greatly appreciate it.

Gordon Boggis 28:38
Thank you.

Jill Lee 28:40
Thank you, Sarah.

Producer 28:48
Music for Good, Thoughtful Hosts was written, produced, and performed by Sam Clapp. Our moderator is Sarah Steimer, editing by Travis Estvold. And a special thank you to our content development team, Marnie Moore and Trisha Miller. For more information about the podcast, visit thoughtfulhosts.com. Thanks for listening.