Good, Thoughtful Hosts #309: Inspiration Through Systems with Kaitlin McCoy

Cushing Terrell architect and sustainability specialist Kaitlin McCoy explains how she problem-solves by stepping back and considering the full system, rather than hyper-focusing on an issue. She’ll also discuss the systems found in nature that inspire her to look at the big picture.

Episode #309 Transcript | Listen on SoundCloud

Producer 00:00
Today’s special guest.

Kaitlin McCoy 00:03
Hi. My name is Kaitlin McCoy. I am an architect and sustainability specialist at Cushing Terrell out of our Minneapolis office.

Sarah Steimer 00:12
Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us from Minneapolis today. If you would, Kaitlin, please tell us what inspires you.

Kaitlin McCoy 00:19
So my source of inspiration, I would say, is systems. So more specifically, the inspiration that comes from thinking and learning about the complex relationships in those systems. It’s really about how this complexity can lead to elegant solutions that benefit the system as a whole. So for me, nature-based systems and biomimicry are two areas that I’m particularly drawn to because those systems are often cyclical and self supporting, which is really fascinating to me, especially from a sustainability perspective. One thing that I really like about is that systems can be found anywhere and everywhere, and sometimes I find direct solutions from different system examples, though it’s often that the true inspiration I feel comes in a more conceptual way. So I think just overall, considering systems helps me reframe my mindset when approaching maybe like a difficult problem or even just a blank page.

Sarah Steimer 01:25
Hi, folks, it’s Sarah Steimer with Good, Thoughtful Hosts, and today we’re talking about getting inspired by systems. One of the ways Kaitlin is going to discuss this concept is by talking about nature-based systems. The idea here is to solve problems by looking at the way natural systems work. A bee doesn’t just create honey. There is a complex system of insects, plants and other matter at work. This sort of systemic thinking makes the case for seeking out nonlinear routes to solving a problem or locating an issue or preventing an issue. Maybe all of your bees are healthy and the flowers are blooming, but you still aren’t making any honey. Increasing bees and flowers, a linear response, doesn’t necessarily improve the problem, but if you open your aperture a bit and find a creative solution, you may find that there’s something else getting in the way. You could find that the use of pesticides is up in the area, or that the flowers just aren’t preferred by the bees. It’s a system of many working parts that all matter. It can feel a little overwhelming when you consider the many parts that make a whole system work. But it can also be creatively energizing when you see the beautiful dance they can perform when everyone’s in step. So this is, to me, a super unique thing to learn about, of course, because, you know, it’s, it’s so easy to hyper fixate on one small thing, I think, versus seeing it within the grand scheme of things. So what is it about? You know, instead of zooming in, kind of zooming out for you, kind of helps you to reframe and reconsider maybe a problem that you’re working on.

Kaitlin McCoy 03:21
Yeah, I mean, I love that you brought that up, because that’s actually when I turn to systems for inspiration. It’s usually because I have dialed in too tightly and I’m just, you know, I get hyper fixated on a problem. And I think the real thing there is when I get very focused on something in that way, and I’m not zooming out, I might be really focused on getting from A to B, and that’s a very linear line, which means if there’s a roadblock in the way, I have to do I go over it? Do I go around it? Do I have to eliminate the roadblock there’s just like, it’s all about this forward progress one direction. So sometimes when I get stuck, or I catch myself thinking like that, I try to pull back and think about, you know, either the system involved in the direct problem that I’m looking at, or even, you know, pulling back farther and trying to look at other examples of systems that might be similar or, you know, tackle a problem in a unique way. And I feel like by pulling back and thinking about the system as a whole, you really start looking at the relationships between different parts and pieces. And maybe a to b is your best route, but maybe you’re going A to C to D to B, sorry to throw out all the letters, but I think with systems, it just it makes you consider new alternatives, because there are many pieces at play, and often the different pieces at play also have multiple roles that they play. And you might be focused on the one role, but maybe by reframing it and thinking about it from that larger context, you can get some new ideas. It’s almost like stepping away from the room that you’re in and walking somewhere else. It sounds like to see okay, so what’s going on over here? That might be the issue, you know, have, I have I look at this?

Sarah Steimer 05:19
So you, you mentioned, you know, we’re talking kind of specifically about one particular problem that you yourself would be working on. But you also mentioned how some systems, maybe in nature, can be inspiring to you in terms of how things work together, things like that. So can you, can you give me an example of maybe a more natural system that you’ve been able to look at and go, Oh, huh, like that. That could be something that I use in my own work, or, once again, take inspiration from for my own work.

Kaitlin McCoy 05:53
Yeah, definitely. I think let’s go with the nature example of mangrove forest, because that is one that just always comes back to me. There’s so much going on there, and I am by no means an expert in in those systems or all of the complex organisms that are involved, but there are some great organizations out there that publish a lot of great research, so I don’t have to be an expert. I can just read up on the summaries for them. But with the mangrove forest, you know, you could look at it from a variety of ways. I’m going to focus on the mangrove trees because they’re just such a cool kind of tree, but you can think about how they offer protection and habitat for various wildlife that you could focus on how they sequester carbon. But then there are also things that might not be as directly obvious. And so one of the things that I’ve found when looking specifically at these mangrove forests for inspiration for design solutions is the role that they play in protecting the shoreline so their root systems help basically absorb and disperse waves coming in, all the energy and destructive power that those waves could have If they hit the shoreline directly, the mangrove really performs this service that, you know, it provides that habitat and all of those other things, but it also protects from erosion, and it creates this in between buffer zone between, say, a high-energy space like ocean and a lower-energy space, like land. So thinking about that again, not at a literal level, I’m not thinking, how can I get a mangrove tree into my building? I’m thinking more along the lines of, okay, we’ve got high energy, high activity on one side. We’ve got an area on the other side that needs to be protected. What is taking that role that the mangrove is providing and creating that buffer? So in architecture, a common example for that would be acoustics. We’ve got really loud spaces. We’ve got quiet spaces. What kind of strategies do you implement so that that buffer space is usable? There’s animals living there habitat, lots of activity in that buffer zone, but it also it benefits both the quiet side and the loud side. So that’s just one example of, you know, looking at a natural system and the way that these different pieces serve each other to create a better whole.

Sarah Steimer 08:49
What kind of popped up to me when you’re explaining this? I, you know, I was thinking originally when we were talking about, you know, how different pieces of the system interact to maybe solve a problem. But now you have me thinking too about how things interact in that you could create a problem by not thinking of the ways that these different pieces play a role together. How you know, you take away this piece of the puzzle, and then suddenly things are going to fall away, fall apart. Is that another thing, too, is that, is that something else that you think about in terms of inspiration, when it comes to, okay, I have to kind of take this bigger picture, look out in a grander form, to also avoid problems that could arise

Kaitlin McCoy 09:36
Absolutely, yeah, and I think you know that can come up in a variety of ways. Maybe there’s a part of the system that is not benefiting the whole. It’s, you know, malfunctioning. How do we you know, you might be looking at a problem three steps down the line, but you pull back to that system, and you can kind of look at that grander whole. And maybe a part isn’t serving its function, and how can we address that and adjust for it? Or, if you’re in the early stages of design, how can we plan ahead to avoid that, understand the needs of all the different parts of the systems and how they can benefit each other and not get in each other’s way, so to speak.

Sarah Steimer 10:21
So, you know, it’s funny, because I’m sitting here thinking like, oh, I kind of love this sort of wide aperture conversation, because I love looking at the big picture. Personally, I I’m not a hyper focused for better or worse sometimes. But is there a sense of overwhelm, you think, that keeps people from looking at systems and triggers them to stay hyper focused?

Kaitlin McCoy 10:49
Yeah, and, I mean, I think it even happens for me, even though I love turning to systems for inspiration sometimes, especially, you know, if you’ve got this really hard problem you’ve been working on, and you have hyper focused, the thought of adding complexity to that can be pretty overwhelming. It’s like, I’ve already got this problem I can’t solve, and now you’re telling me to add in 10 more factors, too? No way am I doing that. So I definitely do think that that the potential for overwhelm, or am I just creating more problems for myself instead of solving them? Could definitely be something that could get in the way.

Sarah Steimer 11:29
So okay, so then what? What sort of your advice then to avoid overwhelm, when maybe there is this opportunity for inspiration, by looking at the system by looking at the bigger picture, by looking at all the many different links that interact with one another.

Kaitlin McCoy 11:46
That’s a great question. I mean, I think the most important thing for me in that regard is trying not to get too literal about it. And, you know, just use it as kind of a thought experiment. You don’t have to, you know, think you’re going to find the perfect system example, and it’s going to solve your problem. It’s almost, yeah, just taking a step back from your problem and not thinking about it so directly. You know, maybe the first system you look at will inspire you, and you’ll be able to jump right back into it, but maybe you just need some time to sit back from the problem and think about other things that are going on, or other opportunities, and then, you know, come back to that later. So I think the big thing is, like removing the pressure of I need to find this solution immediately, which can be challenging when there’s deadlines and other pressure going on, but I think taking that step back can be so important and can move you forward faster that you really have to kind of relieve that pressure of, how do I introduce this very complex idea and dissect it all and come up with the perfect solution right away. It’s really about reframing the way that you’re coming at the problem in the first place.

Sarah Steimer 13:09
I keep thinking, you know, as you’re describing all of this, it almost to me also sounds, you know, of course, you gave the great example from nature, but it also kind of sounds a little bit like, if you were not that I’m a big ballet person, but if you were watching a ballet like, yeah, you can really focus in on one performer’s footwork, for example, and just stare at their feet the whole performance, but then you’re missing the intricate way that everyone’s sort of weaving around one another and moving collectively or individually, and you kind of miss out on the full performance by just staring at one set of shoes, in a way. Do you think that there is an argument to just kind of finding Yes, you can watch one performer, watch one set of feet, but taking in the full performance is really kind of a magical thing to get an idea of how things weave together. Like is that, do you, Is it something about also, kind of, the beauty and the way things work together and are able to fluctuate around one another, and, you know, play off of and feed off of, is it, Is it something about the joy in that, the beauty and that that is also inspiring to you?

Kaitlin McCoy 14:20
Definitely. And I’m actually, I’m really glad that you brought that up, and that particular example, I think that is why this is my source of inspiration. And with systems, there’s, yeah, you can get down into the technical, nitty gritty aspects of it, and sometimes that does help you problem solve. But I think one of the reasons that I turned to systems as an inspiration, and why, when I look back on past project work, my most satisfying design solutions and projects have incorporated this, because there is so much satisfaction in looking at that larger picture and like this beautiful overall composition, it, yeah, it kind of bridges that, that gap between, you know, the technical and art and beauty in that final composition. And nature does it so well. Just, if I love turning to that as an example. But there’s so much beauty and efficiency and creative solutions that come out of it that, yeah, there’s something just very satisfying about when you figure out how to make the pieces click into place together and complement one another, it really just impacts the whole and when you zoom out to look at it. It is very satisfying.

Sarah Steimer 15:43
And it seems like this really makes the case too for a, you know, multidisciplinary approach, for a diverse set of voices. Because, you know, of course, if you have, like, only architects working on a problem, then you might miss out on what an engineer might notice, or, you know, an interior designer might notice, or an environmentalist might notice. You know, you you’re going to create something that has a lot more depth and usability, etc, when you have a diverse team working on a problem. One of the last questions I wanted to ask you, Kaitlin, what other suggestions would you give someone then to, whether it’s from nature, otherwise, you know what, what would you tell them to do or consider when there’s an opportunity to use systems as inspiration?

Kaitlin McCoy 16:31
Yeah, I think I would just say, you know, don’t get too literal with it. You could find an exact solution, but sometimes the conceptual or abstract will lead you to new ideas, and so kind of embrace the exploratory nature of that, and also consider systems that are maybe different from what you’re trying to deal with. Because I think that’s where a lot of the creativity comes in, and the inspiration to link something that seems separate and different in a really unique way.

Sarah Steimer 17:10
I like that, and I’m absolutely going to borrow from you in the future, because that really is great advice to look at it that way: What else is going to be affected, things like that. Well, Kaitlin, this was such an interesting conversation, and I really, really appreciate your giving us this perspective, because again, this was, to me, one of the more unique conversations that we’ve had in this season. But was there anything else that you wanted to mention about systems and their usefulness when it comes to problem solving?

Kaitlin McCoy 17:39
I think the big thing for me is systems are more than the sum of their parts, so really dig into those relationships and look for ways that you know you can, you can get from A to B, but finding ways that these complex relationships can have an overall richer result.

Sarah Steimer 18:02
Awesome. Well, again, thank you so much for joining us. This was such a pleasure to chat with you about this. I can kind of feel my own brain kind of trying to, like, shift around and think about, like, Oh my God, how can I use this better? But again, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate your time today.

Kaitlin McCoy 18:18
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Producer 18:19
Music for Good, Thoughtful Hosts was written, produced, and performed by Sam Clapp. Our moderator is Sarah Steimer. Editing by Travis Estvold. And a special thanks to our content development team, Amanda Herzberg and Marni Moore. For more information about the podcast, visit thoughtfulhosts.com. Thanks for listening!

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